IRC logs of #tryton for Thursday, 2011-02-03

chat.freenode.net #tryton log beginning Thu Feb 3 00:00:02 CET 2011
2011-02-03 00:01 <yangoon> cedk: so please go ahead, I will try to do it this weekend or soon after, if this nakes more sense
2011-02-03 00:02 <cedk> yangoon: ok
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2011-02-03 08:31 <udono> http://bugs.tryton.org is down
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2011-02-03 09:33 <udono> bechamel: hi, http://bugs.tryton.org is down
2011-02-03 09:37 <bechamel> udono: unfortunatly I don't have enough right to reboot the server
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2011-02-03 11:56 <Lo-lan-do> Hi all :-)
2011-02-03 11:56 <Lo-lan-do> I just went through a bunch of suppliers' invoices, and Tryton's ability to save default lines depending on the supplier is just *awesome* :-)
2011-02-03 11:59 <Lo-lan-do> On an unrelated note, I'm currently wondering how the client saves the open tabs between sessions, because it currently opens only one when I start the client, and I can't find how to change that.
2011-02-03 12:00 <cedk> Lo-lan-do: you can change the Home action in the user preferences
2011-02-03 12:01 <Lo-lan-do> The item only gives me one choice (Menu) currently. Do I need to define new actions?
2011-02-03 12:02 <Lo-lan-do> Also, I like having the menu in addition to other tabs, but currently on startup I get the menu plus one tab (open sales).
2011-02-03 12:03 <cedk> Lo-lan-do: yes you must define an action that do what you want
2011-02-03 12:04 <Lo-lan-do> I see. Thanks.
2011-02-03 12:05 <Lo-lan-do> I'll have a look when time permits. Thanks again for tryton, it really rocks :-)
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2011-02-03 16:15 <udono> hey, someone on FOSDEM this weekend?
2011-02-03 16:17 <cedk> udono: me
2011-02-03 16:18 <udono> cedk: I think about to come, too. But unsure.
2011-02-03 16:19 <cedk> udono: Bertrand and me will be there
2011-02-03 16:20 <udono> cedk: sounds good
2011-02-03 16:22 <udono> cedk: bechamel: are you there as visitors or exhibitor?
2011-02-03 16:24 <bechamel> udono: visitors
2011-02-03 16:24 <cedk> udono: visitors
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2011-02-03 17:18 <udono> plantian: Do you have some experiences in cash based accounting method? http://www.allbusiness.com/accounting-reporting/methods-standards-cash/1308-1.html http://womeninbusiness.about.com/od/glossaryofaccountingterm/g/definition-cost-basis-accounting.htm
2011-02-03 17:18 <udono> plantian: specially in US
2011-02-03 17:21 <udono> I ask me if cash-based accounting method is only a topic in USA, Germany, Swiss and Austria?
2011-02-03 17:28 <cedk> udono: I know you can do cash accounting for tax in france under specific condition
2011-02-03 17:29 <udono> cedk: ah, ok. Do you know these conditions? And is it only for VAT on income or for VAT on expenses, too?
2011-02-03 17:30 <udono> ACTION even do not know if frace has VAT on expenses...
2011-02-03 17:31 <cedk> udono: I think it makes no sense to use different method for income and for expense
2011-02-03 17:33 <Lo-lan-do> What's the question about VAT and France? Maybe I can be of help…
2011-02-03 17:34 <cedk> Lo-lan-do: udono would like to know where there is cash-based accounting
2011-02-03 17:36 <udono> cedk: AFAIK it makes much sense for different methods. US can choose between different methods. And Germany has always accrual basis for expenses and cash-basis for income if you choose and if your enterprise fulfills certain conditions.
2011-02-03 17:37 <cedk> udono: that's make no sense
2011-02-03 17:37 <udono> Lo-lan-do: cash-basis accounting is a simplified accounting method for smaller companies. I request in which nations it is used.
2011-02-03 17:37 <Lo-lan-do> Hm. To the best of my knowledge (and I'm a geek, not an accountant), in France you either do cash-based for both income and expenses or accrual for both.
2011-02-03 17:38 <cedk> udono: Are you really sure about what you say?
2011-02-03 17:38 <Lo-lan-do> This probably depends on your fiscal/social status. In mine, I could switch to accrual.
2011-02-03 17:38 <udono> cedk: Maybe an example helps:
2011-02-03 17:39 <Lo-lan-do> I think small companies can't do accrual (I couldn't, initially, and then I had to change my status because I started making reasonably high amounts of money).
2011-02-03 17:40 <cedk> udono: no need, I understand what you said
2011-02-03 17:40 <cedk> udono: but I find it is not logical to work like this
2011-02-03 17:41 <cedk> udono: it breaks the basis of accounting
2011-02-03 17:43 <udono> My enterprise uses the cash-based method of accounting. When I write an invoice to another company, it is done cash-based. This means, I must only pay the taxes to the government after I received the payment from the other company. On the other Hand, if my enterprise receive an Invoice from another company, I can strictly ask the government to get the taxes back, even when I did not payed the invoice.
2011-02-03 17:44 <udono> cedk: about this I am sure.
2011-02-03 17:46 <cedk> udono: your MP are not logical
2011-02-03 17:46 <udono> MP
2011-02-03 17:46 <udono> ?
2011-02-03 17:47 <cedk> udono: deputy
2011-02-03 17:47 <udono> cedk: :-)
2011-02-03 17:47 <cedk> udono: you can easily make fraud with such system
2011-02-03 17:47 <udono> when I read http://womeninbusiness.about.com/od/glossaryofaccountingterm/g/definition-cost-basis-accounting.htm correctly, in USA you can mix the methods up you like.
2011-02-03 17:49 <udono> Lo-lan-do: Thanks for investigation
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2011-02-03 17:50 <cedk> Lo-lan-do: I think it is the opposite: cash accounting exists for small companies. Accrual is the best way but require most of the time a bigger starting fund
2011-02-03 17:50 <cedk> udono: look at this:
2011-02-03 17:50 <udono> cedk: Lo-lan-do: Do you know the French expressions for cash-accounting and accrual accounting methods?
2011-02-03 17:50 <cedk> I have company A and you have company B
2011-02-03 17:51 <cedk> both with your cash way
2011-02-03 17:51 <cedk> I sent you invoices with taxes
2011-02-03 17:52 <cedk> so you will ask to be reimburesed
2011-02-03 17:52 <cedk> now your company makes Invoices to A
2011-02-03 17:52 <cedk> but nobody never pays
2011-02-03 17:52 <cedk> so A can ask to be reimbursed
2011-02-03 17:53 <cedk> so every body get money from the government but nobody will never pay any taxes
2011-02-03 17:54 <Lo-lan-do> udono: That would be something like "comptabilité en recettes-dépenses" or "comptabilité en créances-dettes".
2011-02-03 17:54 <cedk> udono: it is a tax carousel fraud
2011-02-03 17:54 <cedk> Lo-lan-do: yes
2011-02-03 17:55 <udono> cedk: yes tax fraud is always a problem for the government. And yes, its called tax caroussell in Germany, too.
2011-02-03 17:55 <cedk> udono: generaly, you must do this across country but looks like in Germany it is easier
2011-02-03 17:56 <udono> Lo-lan-do: Thanks
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2011-02-03 17:59 <udono> cedk: AFAIK German finance agencies can look every time they like into your Bank accounts.
2011-02-03 18:00 <udono> cedk: s/your/mine/
2011-02-03 18:02 <cedk> udono: does not help
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2011-02-03 19:38 <JamesPharaoh> hi, is there an easy way to set up different document templates for different companies in tryton? also how can i customise the header - this seems to be part of the distribution and not editable through the gui like the other reports
2011-02-03 19:41 <cedk> JamesPharaoh: indeed header is define in the report action by the field style
2011-02-03 19:43 <JamesPharaoh> cedk: so is there an easy way to have completely different reports for different companies in the same system?
2011-02-03 19:43 <JamesPharaoh> cedk: i guess i could probably put some conditionals in there or something but that will make the document more complicated
2011-02-03 19:43 <cedk> JamesPharaoh: not without customisation
2011-02-03 19:44 <JamesPharaoh> cedk: ok, so i guess the conditionals in the document are the way to go then :)
2011-02-03 19:44 <JamesPharaoh> cedk: thanks
2011-02-03 19:57 <JamesPharaoh> cedk: actually how can i modify header_A4.odt... do i have to change the copy in /usr/local/lib/python2.6/dist-packages/trytond_company-1.8.0-py2.6.egg/trytond/modules/company/header_A4.odt because that doesn't seem ideal, can i override it somehow instead?
2011-02-03 20:01 <cedk> JamesPharaoh: you must make report style pointing to an other file
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2011-02-03 20:12 <plantian> udono: Hi sorry. I'm sure we don't use accrual accounting but I don't know if it matters with your question because we are not incorporated in any form.
2011-02-03 20:12 <udono> plantian: ok, thanks!
2011-02-03 20:13 <udono> plantian: so you use cash accounting?
2011-02-03 20:13 <udono> plantian: you pay taxes when you earn money, not when you write the invoice?
2011-02-03 20:14 <cedk> udono: there is both method for tax report and also for accounting report
2011-02-03 20:14 <cedk> udono: but I think cash method is generaly used for tax report
2011-02-03 20:15 <plantian> udono: Right, let me double check.
2011-02-03 20:15 <udono> cedk: where is 'there'?
2011-02-03 20:17 <plantian> cedk: You mean two different methods could be potentially chosen for reporting income for tax purposes versus sending reports to investors and public for corporation right ?
2011-02-03 20:17 <cedk> udono: I guess cach method exists in many countries
2011-02-03 20:18 <cedk> plantian: yes
2011-02-03 20:18 <plantian> I think cash method is considered inferior not because of tax collection loopholes but because it makes running your business more difficult once it grows beyond a certain size.
2011-02-03 20:20 <cedk> plantian: also it doesn't give a good picture of your company
2011-02-03 20:20 <cedk> plantian: I think it is only useful for starting business
2011-02-03 20:22 <udono> cedk: yes, in Germany we have cash-based and accrual-based on VAT and additionally on the structure of the income/balance reports. Both can be mixed.
2011-02-03 20:23 <cedk> udono: by the way, I think we can manage it in Tryton by using reconciliation date
2011-02-03 20:24 <udono> cedk: not for partially paid invoices :-(
2011-02-03 20:25 <udono> cedk: but for Journal entries on account Receivables/Payable and their conterpart payings.
2011-02-03 20:26 <cedk> udono: how can you manage partial payment
2011-02-03 20:27 <cedk> udono: you can not know how much for taxes you received
2011-02-03 20:27 <udono> cedk: we need some kind of payment taxes.
2011-02-03 20:28 <udono> cedk: these are taxes which will apply on each payment of an invoice
2011-02-03 20:29 <udono> cedk: in Germany it is usual, when the payment is e.g. 1/3 of the total amount, then the tax you earn is 1/3 of all invoiced taxes.
2011-02-03 20:30 <cedk> udono: ok but you don't know which taxes
2011-02-03 20:30 <cedk> udono: if you got different taxes on the invoice for different rate
2011-02-03 20:31 <udono> cedk: it is 1/3 of all invoiced taxes...
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2011-02-03 20:32 <cedk> udono: by the way, I think that if a company is ready to get some sort of ERP, it has enough maturity to use accrual accounting
2011-02-03 20:32 <udono> from the above example
2011-02-03 20:32 <cedk> udono: then you will start to have rounding issue
2011-02-03 20:32 <cedk> udono: this makes thing really complicated
2011-02-03 20:33 <udono> cedk: yes, true :-)
2011-02-03 20:33 <udono> cedk: but tryton is not an ERP, it is an application platform for...
2011-02-03 20:34 <cedk> udono: don't care how you named it
2011-02-03 20:34 <cedk> udono: it is not for single man company
2011-02-03 20:34 <cedk> udono: or at least with enough good practice to use accrual accounting
2011-02-03 20:36 <cedk> udono: last thing, we will not modify (complexify) the current accounting module to manage this method
2011-02-03 20:38 <udono> cedk: good to know
2011-02-03 20:41 <cedk> udono: Tryton is about good practice so everybody knows that cash method is bad :-)
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2011-02-03 20:43 <kingsnake> hello good evening
2011-02-03 20:43 <kingsnake> i have a question regarding importing default base data
2011-02-03 20:44 <udono> kingsnake: Welcome! Just ask.
2011-02-03 20:44 <kingsnake> When i try to change imported data i get the following message: You are not allowed to delete this record.
2011-02-03 20:44 <kingsnake> i actually want to allow this
2011-02-03 20:45 <kingsnake> It follows with: This record is part of the base configuration.
2011-02-03 20:47 <udono> kingsnake: which kind of data you are talking about?
2011-02-03 20:47 <kingsnake> Data i import when installing a module
2011-02-03 20:48 <udono> kingsnake: which exactly? Imported by csv, proteus, xmlrpc, ...?
2011-02-03 20:48 <udono> kingsnake: or do you mean data which is introduced by the module itself?
2011-02-03 20:48 <kingsnake> In __tryton__.py under 'xml' i specifiy import_data.xml
2011-02-03 20:48 <kingsnake> yea
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2011-02-03 20:49 <udono> kingsnake: got it
2011-02-03 20:49 <plantian> cedk: It is difficult to switch and difficult/expensive to maintain depending on the business. I agree that it is better practice though.
2011-02-03 20:50 <udono> kingsnake: all data which comes from the module is not editable from userside. It is inserted by user id 0 (zero) which is the root system user.
2011-02-03 20:50 <kingsnake> Aha, thanks for explaining.
2011-02-03 20:50 <udono> kingsnake: but Iam unsure if you can tweak the xml... cedk, you know?
2011-02-03 20:51 <kingsnake> Sorry for my IRC noobiness, but how do i direct messages to someone in public chat?
2011-02-03 20:52 <udono> kingsnake: just type the name of the user. Tab key is your friend. If you want pivat chat, just doubleclick on the nickname.
2011-02-03 20:53 <kingsnake> udono, ah thanks
2011-02-03 20:53 <udono> kingsnake: works :-)
2011-02-03 20:57 <cedk> xml file in module is not the good way to import configuration data
2011-02-03 20:57 <cedk> best way is to write a script (with proetus)
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2011-02-03 20:58 <hoRn> hi all
2011-02-03 21:01 <udono> cedk: BTW cash-accounting is the usual accounting-method in Germany, Austria and Swiss for not incorporated enterprises with < 500.000 EUR or 1.000.000 CHF. These companies seems neither small nor is cash-accounting attributed bad in these countries :-P
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2011-02-03 21:03 <hoRn> i'm still doing a little extension for collecting nonreferenced outgoing shipments and create account_invoice_lines_standalone from that moves. is there already a solution to collect this shipments?
2011-02-03 21:05 <kingsnake> cedk, That's what i did before actually... But the xml file in module import is actually very convenient for what i'm using it for.
2011-02-03 21:05 <hoRn> ho - i only read the last message from udono - cash-accounting means 'Istbesteuerung'? If so - this module is the best way to blow up the users of tryton in germany
2011-02-03 21:06 <cedk> udono: too bad
2011-02-03 21:06 <udono> cedk: Yes, true.
2011-02-03 21:07 <plantian> hoRn: "blow up the users", ha do you mean grow the user base?
2011-02-03 21:07 <cedk> udono: you should have precise description of the requirement because this method is not univocal
2011-02-03 21:08 <hoRn> plantian: yes - bad expression? ;)
2011-02-03 21:09 <plantian> hoRn: Haha I'm not sure. In America when we read "blow up" we don't think about balloons; we think about bombs. I think it is a cultural problem we have.
2011-02-03 21:11 <cedk> udono: by the way, I think cash accounting is more difficult to manage so it is strange that small company prefers it
2011-02-03 21:13 <hoRn> plantian: my english is a mixture from listening hip hop, reading programmers posts in the internet and talking english with non anglo-american people :]
2011-02-03 21:13 <cedk> udono: and at the end you pay the same amount of taxes :-)
2011-02-03 21:13 <hoRn> plantian: the last mostly a little bit trunken
2011-02-03 21:16 <hoRn> cedk: but you hav to pay the taxes if you have received the payment - not if you have sent a invoice
2011-02-03 21:25 <udono> cedk: yes, on the end everything all pay the same taxes :-)
2011-02-03 21:27 <udono> cedk: cash accounting is very easy to manage, just take a three column table and name column 1 Income and column 2 Expense and column 3 Tax. That's it.
2011-02-03 21:28 <udono> cedk: The real problem is double-entry accounting with the cash-based method and a way to change the method between the fiscal years.
2011-02-03 21:31 <udono> cedk: but you are right, we need a precise description of the requirements. This I am actually working out.
2011-02-03 21:35 <hoRn> udono: if I'm done with my actual project I would work in this - but don't know the fiscal requirements
2011-02-03 21:36 <hoRn> udono: I need it for my own company because < 500.000 - what a shame
2011-02-03 21:36 <udono> hoRn: Thanks
2011-02-03 21:37 <hoRn> http://pastie.org/1526112 - that seems a brute way to get all shipments without a reference to invoice_line_standalone
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2011-02-03 22:44 <cedk> hoRn: it is not correct
2011-02-03 22:44 <hoRn> no - teh account is wrong and many more
2011-02-03 22:44 <cedk> hoRn: you must search for moves that are not linked to a sale line
2011-02-03 22:46 <hoRn> cedk: that was really quick and dirty - every move linked to a sale line has a reference
2011-02-03 22:47 <cedk> hoRn: by the way, I would not do that this way
2011-02-03 22:47 <hoRn> cedk: how you would do that?
2011-02-03 22:48 <cedk> hoRn: if I understand well what you want to do is to create a invoice line for every outgoing move that is not managed by a sale order
2011-02-03 22:48 <hoRn> cedk: yes
2011-02-03 22:48 <hoRn> cedk: the company has contracts - so no sale is necessary
2011-02-03 22:50 <cedk> hoRn: I will override create/write method of stock.move and when the state change to done then create the line and keep a link to it
2011-02-03 22:50 <cedk> hoRn: of course, you must raise an error message if you don't have every information like the party etc.
2011-02-03 22:51 <hoRn> cedk: but which action creates the move?
2011-02-03 22:51 <cedk> hoRn: but if I was in charge of modeling this, I will keep the sale workflow
2011-02-03 22:52 <cedk> hoRn: the create or write method
2011-02-03 22:52 <hoRn> cedk: the create/write of move?
2011-02-03 22:53 <cedk> hoRn: yes
2011-02-03 22:54 <cedk> hoRn: but as I said for me it is not a good design (but still better than yours)
2011-02-03 22:54 <cedk> hoRn: you still have problem if someone delete the invoice line
2011-02-03 22:54 <hoRn> cedk: ;(
2011-02-03 22:55 <cedk> hoRn: the best way is to keep using sale
2011-02-03 22:55 <hoRn> cedk: if he delete the invoice_line he is unemployed after
2011-02-03 22:55 <cedk> hoRn: people can make mistake
2011-02-03 22:57 <hoRn> cedk: not in this company - is manchester of the first 19th
2011-02-03 22:58 <hoRn> cedk: my problem is - the are doing deliveries all the day - but theay are writing invoices once a week
2011-02-03 22:58 <cedk> hoRn: if nobody makes mistake then they don't need of business software ;-)
2011-02-03 22:59 <cedk> hoRn: you should write a module sale_invoice_line_standalone
2011-02-03 22:59 <hoRn> cedk: i was checking out the invoice_methods
2011-02-03 22:59 <cedk> hoRn: like the purchase_invoice_line_standalon
2011-02-03 22:59 <cedk> hoRn: sale and purchase module are very similar so it should be not diffifcult
2011-02-03 22:59 <cedk> hoRn: and it could be part of the base modules
2011-02-03 22:59 <hoRn> cedk: i will do so - but i need a fast solution tomorrow
2011-02-03 23:00 <hoRn> cedk: since monday tryton is the base of this company ;)
2011-02-03 23:01 <cedk> hoRn: you can just override the method create_invoice of sale
2011-02-03 23:01 <cedk> hoRn: and do the same as in purchase_invoice_line_standalone
2011-02-03 23:02 <cedk> hoRn: http://hg.tryton.org/modules/purchase_invoice_line_standalone/file/4651af65e017/purchase.py#l26
2011-02-03 23:02 <cedk> hoRn: and later you improve it to manage exception etc.
2011-02-03 23:03 <hoRn> cedk: but i will shorten the way to a invoice. there is finally no sale at all - one contract a year
2011-02-03 23:04 <cedk> hoRn: like you want
2011-02-03 23:05 <hoRn> cedk: finally it could be, that my project is a blueprint for service production
2011-02-03 23:05 <hoRn> cedk: for example this company has shipments_in without payments
2011-02-03 23:06 <hoRn> cedk: they are gettin products for finishing
2011-02-03 23:07 <hoRn> cedk: since monday 10 people is working in tryton and they don't kill me
2011-02-03 23:07 <hoRn> cedk: without any training
2011-02-03 23:09 <hoRn> cedk: if the first stress is over - i will do a revision of the stuff i wrote and check the code for improvements
2011-02-03 23:10 <cedk> hoRn: for sure, it is never finished :-)
2011-02-03 23:14 <hoRn> cedk: but it's a nice framework -respect
2011-02-03 23:16 <hoRn> cedk: there are some issues with the client in win7 for example - i will do some contributions if i have the time
2011-02-03 23:16 <cedk> hoRn: report at least issue on roundup
2011-02-03 23:18 <hoRn> cedk: I'll do with a solution - the hight of the client sometimes is to high
2011-02-03 23:19 <hoRn> cedk: so the user needs to scroll to see the actionbuttons
2011-02-03 23:20 <cedk> hoRn: should be fixed in trunk
2011-02-03 23:22 <hoRn> cedk: I'll will give it a look soon - and contributing something.
2011-02-03 23:23 <hoRn> cedk: but contributing for me is a pitty - you have seen it ;)
2011-02-03 23:25 <cedk> hoRn: what is the problem?
2011-02-03 23:26 <hoRn> cedk: I'm stressed with 2 projects at one time
2011-02-03 23:27 <hoRn> cedk: we are doing a tryton implemation and a big website at the same time
2011-02-03 23:28 <cedk> hoRn: ok ask if there is something you don't understand with codereview etc.
2011-02-03 23:30 <hoRn> cedk: projekte.grasbauer.com/ - seems easy but has a lot of connections to storages and a lot of usecases we are trying to implement with a userfriendly backend - less buttons - more fun ;)
2011-02-03 23:31 -!- johbo(~joh@statdsl-085-016-072-173.ewe-ip-backbone.de) has joined #tryton
2011-02-03 23:32 <cedk> hoRn: you do that with which framework?
2011-02-03 23:32 <hoRn> cedk: our own cms based on ZOPE
2011-02-03 23:37 <hoRn> cedk: a nice piece of software as well ;)
2011-02-03 23:37 <hoRn> cedk: like our shopsoftware which needs a connection to tryton
2011-02-03 23:52 <hoRn> @all - good night!

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